CIM Marketing Podcast - Episode 56: How taking risks can unlock your potential

CIM Marketing Podcast - Episode 56: How taking risks can unlock your potential


Risk and reward in marketing

This podcast will:

  • Explore the secrets of risk-taking in marketing
  • Examine the factors that stifle innovation
  • Preview the latest edition of Catalyst magazine
Podcast transcription
Ally Cook  00:01
Welcome to the CIM Marketing Podcast. The contents and views expressed by individuals in the CIM Marketing Podcast are not necessarily those are the companies for which they work. This series is currently being recorded via web conferencing. We apologise for any issues with the audio.
Ben Walker  00:19
Hello, everybody and welcome to the latest edition of the CIM Marketing Podcast. And today we are joined again by the effervescent Morag Cuddeford-Jones, editor of CIM's Catalyst magazine, Morag, how are you?
Morag Cuddeford-Jones  00:34
I am terribly well Ben, how are you?
Ben Walker  00:36
Not too bad, not too bad. And we're also joined by somebody who has appeared in this coming Catalyst magazine, this Holly Ainger, who is the Chief Marketing Officer at Nuffield Health, Holly, how are you today?
Holly Ainger  00:49
I'm really good. Thanks, Ben. Thanks for having me. How are you?
Ben Walker  00:52
Yeah, it's very well, thanks. And thanks for joining us. It's great to have someone we were talking about the magazine, it's great to have one of the stars of the magazine joining us alongside its editor, which is of course Morag, many of our guests will know but Holly It's a first for her on the show. Morag, this issue is out my voucher copy appeared yesterday. So as we come out, members will be getting it landing on their doormat, it's always a nice thing every season to get what can we expect in this edition?
Morag Cuddeford-Jones  01:23
You can expect some risk. And I was very tempted to call it risky business. But I thought that people of a certain age might be finding it difficult to scrub the image of Tom Cruise from their their minds. I was interested to look at risk because it is fundamentally not who I am as a person, I would much rather burrow into the status quo nice and cosy and not change a single thing. I don't subscribe to astrology. But apparently that makes me a very typical Scorpio where you know, do not change anything, even if the status quo is horrendous. Just don't change it, whatever you do. But I found that as I was researching this edition and looking at the the various people and the various themes, and and cover stories and roundtables to include, it was all coming under a broader theme of risk and taking a chance and leaving the comfort zone and how you go about doing that. And I think one of the things that my fear of risk isn't necessarily so much the risk itself, it's about being unsupported in risk. So it's about taking a big decision, and then finding that you've got no one to help verify it, no one to help you carry it out. No one to then carry it forward. So if we're talking about customers, you've got no one to buy it. If you're talking about a business you've got, you're on an island and nobody in your business is going to work with it with you. So it really, it compelled me to look into it a bit more deeply. I was initially actually thinking that this might be a leadership issue, because I was really interested at the time. And very fondly I've pulled up some notes that I made myself about when we were doing the synopsis for this issue. And I was thinking at the time, what it meant to be a leader and bring people along with you. Good ideas or bad. And I think we can agree that over the last few months, leadership decisions have been interesting to say the least. But I wrote down at the time what it meant to be a leader and I noticed that Jack Dorsey of Twitter was saying that he was stepping down just like all of these sort of, these these big personalities like Richard Branson, who starts the Virgin brand, etc. You wonder what that leader means to that brand and a huge risk that occurs when that leadership that leader goes away. And ironically, I was looking at it at the time Elon Musk was named Time's Person of the Year, which was hailed on Twitter as 'worst decision ever'. Fast forward to today and Elon Musk has now bought 9% stake in Twitter and is now offering this very morning to buy all of Twitter he said on if you won't let me buy it I'm reconsidering my stake, toys and pram all over the place. So you know it just it just goes to show this there's nothing new in the world really but but the idea of leadership and risk kind of formed in my head as two things that went very closely together.
Ben Walker  04:38
Interesting, isn't it? We should be praising Musk actually because he was the ultimate risk taker in many ways, trying to bring electric vehicles to the world when everyone was sceptical, completely sceptical that electric vehicles would ever offer a sufficient range in performance that people would want to buy them of course, he's been proven right he took the risk. He was an innovator and inventor and now everybody wants a piece of the electric vehicle action and the other car makers are somewhat behind the times on adopting those technologies and changing their fleet to what is clearly they're going to be the energy source of the future. But if you look at someone like Musk, you think why doesn't everybody everybody, surely has gotten an innovation inside of them. And lots of people want to be an inventor and an innovator in marketing as in any other sectors, which sort of begs the question, particularly when I was reading in my voucher copy yesterday, your cover story about innovation nation? Why don't more of us do it?
Morag Cuddeford-Jones  05:36
Terror? It is hard, isn't it? Everyone has a great idea. You know, you don't need a whole company to shoot you down in flames. You just need your friends in the pub, don't you say: 'Oh, I've got this brilliant idea for a pair of tights that won't fall down.' And they go: 'tights are meant to fall down, it's the law.' Well, of course, in our cover story, one woman has invented a pair of tights that don't fall down.
Ben Walker  06:00
Wow, she has an Holly you're saying, wow. And it's interesting, you said Morag about the friends in the pub and actually I read a piece of research. I wish I could cite it now off the top of my head. But I read a piece of research quite recently that backs you up, that actually a lot of great ideas get destroyed in their infancy, not by other companies, not by investors, but by our friends, we go to our friendship group, we mention something and they over a glass of wine over a pint, take it to bits and we lose all confidence in our invention. And some of them actually may have made good inventions, Holly, you're enthusiastically chipping in something that Morag said earlier was that it's not risk so much, it's about having support for that risk. In your you have to take quite a bit of risk and be sort of adventurous in your role as CMO at Nuffield? Do you feel that sometimes you get the support where others perhaps do not?
Holly Ainger  06:59
Yeah, I think it's probably linked to leadership and the people that sit above you in terms of the support that you get there. If you've got a great executive board, or an executive leadership team, who really believe in you, and believe in your team, and the abilities that your team have, and they listen, then you're really halfway there. But if they don't, then I think you do have more of a challenge on your hands. You can be the greatest innovator in the world with the greatest ideas, but you're not going to be able to commercialise them or get them out to market if you haven't got the senior backing behind them. But you've also got a part to play in getting that senior backing by selling the dream, and communicating that to them.
Ben Walker  07:43
A key role of a CMO is to be able to sell that dream and make that communication so people understand and are able to offer that support.
Holly Ainger  07:52
Yeah, absolutely. You know, and obviously, that comes with an element of leadership. And you know, being a great orator, being able to tell a story from you know, conception through to realisation of this is where we were, this is where we want to be. And this is where we are in the middle. And then being able to communicate that but also bringing your team along as well. I think as a CMO and a marketing director, you can have all the ideas in the world. But if you haven't got the team that's under you understanding those as well and actually helping you to build that story and that dream, then you also won't succeed. I've got a fantastic team underneath me and I try and bring them in and actually also expose them to people at that level. Because at some point, all those people that work for you probably want a job. And if you've exposed them to other people, you can help them in their career as well.
Ben Walker  08:43
Sounds like you got a fantastic setup at Nuffield and great feathers in caps at Nuffield, but during your career previous to that, and I'm not asking you to name names here, have you felt that you've lacked that support that you need?
Holly Ainger  08:57
Without a doubt. Yeah, I mean, I'm 25 years into a marketing career now. And I definitely would say it's happened on a number of occasions in my career, perhaps through a little bit of inexperience, perhaps a worrying concern that if I say the wrong thing, then, you know, actually, it's going to affect how I'm perceived. But I think as you become more confident, and you believe in what you're actually delivering, or what you want to actually propose, then you've got to develop that compelling proposition. It's all that it's about, actually develop something that's been fully researched, evidence, and you know, you can communicate the business benefits to that senior leadership team. And you know, it's all about stakeholder management, pick them all off one by one. I've done that in the past, don't just do it, you know, sort of collaboratively in a room, have a chat with each of them individually and just say if you've got five minutes, if you see them in the corridor, that's the way to do it as well and make them become your friend and say actually, can I just steal you for five minutes? I really just want to talk something through with you. You know, theoretically, what do you think about this? But then it's seeded that little thing in their brains.
Ben Walker  10:03
Well, I mean, that's reaching the status of CIM and podcast genius tip, isn't it Morag? Pick them off one by one. Don't drive to do it collaboratively and collectively find all of your individual discrete targets and pick them off, Morag Cuddeford-Jones, one by one. 
Holly Ainger  10:21
Is that what you do Morag?
Morag Cuddeford-Jones  10:24
That's right. I pull them into my universe until I've got them all together. No, but it's absolutely right. Because what you can do is if you went to everyone, as a collective, and just dropped an idea on them. You'd get the mutterings and the confusion and all it takes, isn't it? Is that confused, side-eye look to communicate, I don't understand it. I'm not entirely sure I believe in it. And that just spreads like wildfire, doesn't it across everyone else. It just goes, well, they clearly don't believe in it. So we'll safety in numbers, I think I'm going to stay with them. But if you go to someone, as you rightly say, go to someone and say, Look, this isn't actually that surprising of an idea if you think about it. And it gives you that time and space. How many times have you either been in an argument with someone, even if it's just friendly banter, we're back to the pub again, I don't know why I'm obsessed with this at lunchtime on a Thursday but there you go. You're in the pub, you're having bants, and there's some clever repartee going back and forth. And you're stumped, you can't do it. And then you walk away 15 minutes down the road and you're like oh, I had such a clever comeback for that. And you couldn't do it then. But if you're in a one-to-one situation, you can chat, you can listen, this is something that came across time and time and time again, when I was looking at this edition of the magazine, and when we were having our conversation, Holly for the magazine, that leadership was so much about listening, and being able to absorb the information, it may actually change what you were going to do, which is not necessarily a bad thing. Because heaven forfend you come to a group with a good idea and it gets shot down. It's going to be even worse if you come to them with a half baked one, isn't it?
Holly Ainger  12:08
Yeah, indeed.
Ben Walker  12:10
What do you think the consequences are of not taking risks in marketing ladies? Are there any consequences? Can we can we skate through our careers and be cautious and conservative all the time and still succeed?
Holly Ainger  12:23
I think that you have to take some risks in marketing, you know, we are in a very creative, challenging industry where innovation is key. So I think if you are a staid marketer, you're potentially, possibly not going to be that successful. But I think if you're an innovator, then you're more than likely to take a risk. And I think for every two risks that you take, you'll likely have more successes than you will failures. And with any risk that you take, there's got to be an element of making sure that it's a calculated risk. And do your research. Make sure that you've done your research to mitigate the risk, and you'll probably be okay because marketing is about taking risks.
Morag Cuddeford-Jones  13:01
I think that's fascinating Holly I don't know if you saw recently, he's hard to miss Mr. Mark Ritson, but his his late his latest column was and it put the cat among the Twitter pigeons was about the fact that too many marketers love change. As the more they can institute mad, completely polarising change, the more it distracts it throws a dead cat out there, the more it distracts from the fact that they don't actually know what they're doing as marketers, is you really know what they're doing can helm a steady ship for months and years. But that does not mean that they don't need to take risks and they have to be boring, it just means they don't have to go in and throw a grenade into everything, blow it all up, create some change, create noise, and then walk off again.
Holly Ainger  13:49
Exactly, and I've got a really committed, steady team who actually probably struggle a little bit with change. But if it's communicated in the right way, and you talk to them about taking those risks in the right way, then they're actually really receptive towards that. But you don't need a grenade bomb because it actually can make a team really destabilised. And then actually, you're not delivering what you need to do and they're all worried.
Ben Walker  14:11
You can venture within the bounds of stability, that's what you're trying to aim to do you don't just need to make change for the sake of making changes. Ritson suggests in his column, which is what some marketers do, but you can take ventures, you can take those risks, you can make those gambits within the bounds of stability and support, which is what we were talking earlier. For the two of you. I'm going to put you on the spot here, both of you, you can give me your separate answers, can you think of a risk that you've taken in your respective careers that has really paid off and pushed you forward? And I'll start with you, Morag.
Morag Cuddeford-Jones  14:47
Oh, thanks. Yes, I decided to tell a company I was a journalist when I wasn't. So I wanted to move into, I was in PR, so obviously worked with journalists a lot. And let's say I had a certain capacity for writing, I'm not going to say I had a talent because a subsequent boss put me right back in my place about that one. But I, the more I worked in public relations, the more I found, I enjoyed the communicating, interviewing and writing side of it, rather than the selling side. And I was getting a little bit frustrated. And an opportunity came up at a large trade publishing house. And I'm not saying by the way that I lied and said, I was, you know, completely, you know, I have all these qualifications, you must employ me, I've been working at x, y, and z. I did go through and fess up, I work in PR. But I think I'd be really good.
Ben Walker  15:53
Oh, that's not quite a lie is it, it's not a lie as such.
Morag Cuddeford-Jones  15:57
I said, I said, I think I'd also been working at a start-up writing polls. So my word count per day was probably in the high 10s. And most of those were a, b, c, d. But, but you know, so I didn't massage the truth, I didn't lie, per se, I was maybe lying to myself to give myself the courage to go for it. So I took the risk and moved out of PR into journalism, despite having no real experience in journalism, or actual as I came to discover, proper capability, and I really had to be taught on the job. And that did create some chin wobbly moments, when I got told off for the 750th time for not being able to write a decent stand first. It worked out. And it was a risk, and I was supported, I may have been being told off but I was being told off in a supportive way. And they they put up with me in the fact that I was very rough around the edges. And I'm still being rough around the edges 20 years later.
Ben Walker  17:01
You put yourself forward as an uncut diamond, and they helped cut you to the editrix that you are today. It is a bit of a gambit, isn't it? It's a bit of a gambit to go into a job, not that you pretended as such, you applied for a job, that to your own knowledge, correct knowledge as it happened, you were not qualified. You took a leap of faith, and you asked the employer to take a leap of faith. And that leap of faith really paid off. Holly, you're nodding in furious agreement, have you got a story of risk taking?
Holly Ainger  17:37
I think in my career, yeah, I've had to take a lot of risks. And not all of them have paid off. One comes to mind a few years ago, obviously, I won't name any names, but we were very much in a position where we had to think about brand-new propositions that we could take to market to our customers, we worked on a proposition that was very much around developing all our services together and selling a you know, a one size fits all proposition. And it just didn't work. Because we hadn't done the research, I don't think that we've done enough customer kind of insights and research around what would work, the price point wasn't right, we probably invested way too much marketing budget too early, we didn't pilot it. I learned so much from that I really did because what it made me understand was, that there was some areas and pockets of people that were interested, but we just haven't thought it through because we rushed it. And I actually really beat myself up about that for quite a long time because it was my baby. And we wanted it to be this amazing success and it actually wasn't. And we, in the previous role that I was in where it was, it was talked about for such a long time as the, you know, the elephant in the room, which always used to make me cringe a little bit. But I now look back on it and I actually use it as an example with people in my new team and I say, you know, we did all of this, but actually it didn't work. And what it's done for me now is we know, we've got a proposition as development and marketing team in Nuffield, and you know, we do minimum viable products first. And, you know, we make sure that we've looked at pilots that are regional across every single area rather than we only just targeted one area of the country, which was in hindsight, not the way it should have been. And I think you've got to learn from things like that to actually succeed in the future.
Morag Cuddeford-Jones  19:24
Holly, one of the points that you made there is that you know, when I look back on it, hindsight is 20/20 and even if you were you know skirting around some things going not sure that's gonna prove you know, you'll you'll find some people when they say they'll get some some evidence that doesn't actually support what they want to do and it's like I might just put that one to the side it didn't give me an answer I wanted, no suggestion about that. But, but even if you were not doing the right sort of due diligence or research or pulling together the information you needed. Again, you weren't an island on your own. And without sort of shunting our own mistakes onto someone else. It's not something that you would own yourself, because at any point in that process, someone could go, but did you look into X, Y, and Z and have you here's this customer research panel that you could speak to. So there's lots of points where an unsupported mistake can happen. And it's not everyone's fault. But when it does happen, as you said, it's a brilliant learning experience. And I hope whoever came up with new coke is now the most commensurate marketer ever, because that's a really big learning curve that one
Ben Walker  20:37
It has, I mean, sometimes you can do all the research in the world. You can do all of the customers sort of insights in the world and you can still not come off but the point is, you are mitigating, you're moving the odds in your favour. Morag lives close, I don't think she would mind me saying, to Ascot Racecourse, if you go to Ascot Racecourse, and you bet blind, you are much less likely to back a winner than if you were one of those boring chaps who sits quietly in a corner with the racing post, and has spent the last five days researching the form because he knows a lot more about the horses that are running and he's much more likely for his bet to come off. So it's a difference between making a good bet, which may still not come off, and a bad bet, which is much less likely to come off but you do have to make some bets. It's impossible to back a winner at Ascot as anywhere else if you don't make any bets at all. And more to the point, the thing that really comes out I thought from the magazine is that you are treading Morag, new paths if you take a risk, if you take a bet, if you take a punt, if you do not take a risk as a marketer, if you never take a risk, never make a punt, really what you're doing is you're following the footsteps of other marketers not forging new paths for yourself.
Morag Cuddeford-Jones  21:52
Yeah, I think it's true. I mean, we all want to, it was interesting the the article Innovation Nation starts out with find me an innovation along these lines anyway, find me an innovation that is guaranteed to strike fear into the hearts of the marketers make it go viral. You know, it's there is a certain amount of alchemy, that you just you've got to be comfortable with. Whether it's a serendipitous moment such as snag tights falling down in the street, that's how snag tights was started because ill fitting tights fell down in the street and was embarrassing. Or it can be something as prosaic as a team member coming to you and going: 'Did you know some customers are making some comments about this product, that might be an interesting new avenue.' Now that sounds very businessy, but that leads to innovation, it doesn't always have to be a thunder bolt from the blue on a Sunday afternoon that is a mass revelation. But equally, you can only research so much. And you could also argue I guess I mean, Holly, I'm not a marketing professional so you can tell me to get lost with this one, but I get the impression that you could also research and committee something to death?
Holly Ainger  23:03
Oh, yeah, I mean, you, you have to get to a point where you make a decision that you feel like you've you've carried out all the various different avenues to take something to market. And you know, if you go through a proper propositions development process where you're going from design, define, develop, you know, through to concept through to go to market, and you've spoken to all the right stakeholders, you've done an external market review, you know, yeah, you've got to take the risk. And that's what it's about, you know, testing the market, testing the waters and then rolling with it.
Ben Walker  23:32
As a leader do you lead yourself and your team Holly past that point of no return, they'll mix my metaphor to cross the Rubicon from value proposition to actually write: Okay, folks, we're doing this, let's do this steel yourselves, we're doing it.
Holly Ainger  23:49
I think your teams can actually get confidence from some of the internal and external research that you do. Because if what you've developed actually gets really positive feedback, then that actually, you know, makes them really excited and engaged in that product too. But what you've got to do is, then make sure that your team are on the journey with you. So you know, they're creating the right marketing collateral, the, you know, the above the line, they're below that line creative to really bring it to life. And then make them excited about it, make them sell it to people, don't just you be the one that sell it, make them go out and sell it, make them tell their friends, make them tell their family. And that I think is you know, when you are one team approach, or you know, moving towards the same goal of bringing that value proposition to life, it's the way that it can make the difference.
Ben Walker  24:36
That's interesting isn't Morag, you need to create a team of ambassadors, risk ambassadors, if you like, who are sort of Cavalier and enterprising,
Holly Ainger  24:42
You can't do it all on your own. If you do it all on your own, you'll probably fail.
Morag Cuddeford-Jones  24:46
Absolutely. I mean, it goes right back to your individual conversations, doesn't it Holly? It's I don't know whether that's part of the same conversation, although that certainly probably sews the seed. But whether it's more of those one to one conversations people who have have a: A role to play in something. So you can put your little marker on it and go, you know, I was part of that process, I was behind that that piece of copy, I was behind that email campaign that got some great feedback. And the more that they own it, feel a part of it and feel a part of even if it's not happened yet, can sense that they're going to be part of its future success. Yeah, it pulls everyone on that journey with you and they don't need to be told to be ambassadors, do they? They go home, and they tell their partner, friends in the pub. Hey, guess what I did today? I totally got, you know, a five star review on Trustpilot for this thing that we haven't properly launched yet, whatever. So yeah, it's a self, I would hope anyway, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
Ben Walker  25:43
How about fielding ideas from your team, you know, that we talked earlier about everybody probably, potentially, if you're optimistic, has an inventor and innovator inside of them, which, of course, includes our marketing teams, how do we field ideas from our teams, stop them being shy, stop them, you know, doing what we said earlier about the equivalent of being shot down in flames in the pub?
Holly Ainger  26:10
Probably creating a culture of openness, removing the hierarchy, I say to my team, all the time, I've got an open door, don't feel like because I've got, you know, CMO, marketing director in my title that that means that you can't approach me whether you're a senior marketing executive, right through to a, you know, marketing manager or a head of marketing. It's that culture of honesty and openness that makes them feel like actually, they could come to me with anything. And it could be something really small, or it could be something really huge. And making them feel like they can approach you about it is probably the first thing really, because you know, they don't you want them to feel important. And I do do that a lot and sometimes I have various different one to ones with people who aren't my direct reports, but are within my wider team of you know, 25-30 people, because I want them to feel like they can come to me. I actually had a session this morning and, you know, it was half an hour with someone who isn't even in my team and is a marketing manager, but she just wants a one hour session with me to talk through career development, progression, ideas, how can I do this? How can I do that? And I support that your team are everything. I could be nothing without my team.
Morag Cuddeford-Jones  27:14
I think that's a really important point you make there because I've had conversations before around the whole idea of mentoring. Yeah, then you think, you know, and how this can become a two way beneficial thing. You ask, you know, it's clear, why do I want mentoring? Well, I want I want advice on my career. I want insight into how I'm doing, I want all this feedback. That's great. Then you think well, from a mentors perspective, what's the mentor getting out of this, other than perhaps more insight into their employees and and how to be a good manager? But then as a mentor, if you're sitting and listening to members of your staff, and not even necessarily listening about a specific ongoing project that you're looking for innovative ideas on. But the conversation wafts and wanes, and you can get some insight and they can get the sense that they can talk to you. And so it's when we think about innovation and taking risks, we tend to stick it in a channel. Okay, now we're going to talk about innovation. But it happens everywhere and all the time, and I think just being open to the fact that a good idea is going to come at you out of left field from somewhere you least expect it. 
Ben Walker  28:21
You're creating a sort of psychological safety for your team to be able to present these ideas without fear that they're not they're gonna get shot down or actually doesn't matter if they come up with a few bad ideas, what you really want is a succession and series of ideas and you want an ideas making culture Holly Ainger.
Holly Ainger  28:37
Yeah, and I think following it through if that idea does come to fruition, it's really making sure that the person who gave it to you is actually credited with it as well at a senior level.
Morag Cuddeford-Jones  28:46
Absolutely. I think what is also interesting, so when we think about innovation and giving great ideas that's positive, isn't it? I mean, even if it's a duff idea, it's a positive action it's: you give me your great ideas, we're being open and we're being chatty. One of the interesting things that came out of that roundtable and don't worry I'm not going to ask you to try and remember who said what that's my job. So it was Catherine Jacob OBE from Pearl and Dean and she was talking about campaign they did for Marks and Spencer and they were literally about to launch this fantastic thing to do with the are never going to get the title of this film right the real authentic Marigold Hotel something anyway, Maggie Smith was in it.
Ben Walker  29:23
This is about your third attempt on the CIM Marketing Podcast to name this film correctly.
Morag Cuddeford-Jones  29:29
Google Marigold Hotel, someone will know what it is.
Ben Walker  29:31
One of our lovely audience who knows the real name of this film could write in and let us know.
Morag Cuddeford-Jones  29:42
Let me never forget the name of the real something Marigold Hotel again,
Ben Walker  29:47
We promise to get it right next time but anyway, Morag anyway, so...
Morag Cuddeford-Jones  29:50
The whole thing was going to be Maggie Smith eating a very English cream tea type thing from Marks and Spencers to promote Marks and Spencer. And what I found really interesting was that it was someone who worked in the food department, not someone in creative, not someone in copy, not someone in planning or media or anything, someone who literally works on the shop floor in Marks and Spencers. And they went: 'You do realise we don't sell any of that stuff in India so it would look weird and it would also perish on the way out.' So Catherine, oh, God, you just saved us from a real misstep. So not only did they save them from a real misstep, but it also means that somewhere in that M&S culture, is an understanding that anyone from the shop floor, up to the CEO doesn't just have to come up with great ideas, they can come up and point out when a stupid idea is about to take off. And I thought that was as important as the being able to be free with your ideas.
Ben Walker  30:48
So that's really interesting, Holly, an idea that was constructively criticised is as good as an idea that becomes marketing policy.
Holly Ainger  30:58
Yeah, I think you have both to be honest, I think you've got to let someone have a voice, and listen to that voice and then take it where it needs to be taken.
Ben Walker  31:08
We've got loads of interesting stuff in the magazine about risk and how we need to take it, we need to be unafraid to take it, we want to be able to get ideas from all parts of our business, we want to be able to critique ideas, the magazine is out now in both print and digital format, CIM members will get it on their doormat, or they can visit My CIM to start reading it digitally. Any other goodies in there that we should know about more?
Morag Cuddeford-Jones  31:34
Loads of goodies, there's always goodies. We've got some fantastic stuff, I think the theme that runs through the other articles in his magazine is about looking at things in a different way. So for example, we're looking at the soft power of country brands, from, specifically in this case, from the perspective of Africa, and how Africa has to work on some elements of its brand to be able to support its commerce, both internally and externally. And how that's that's a huge ask, you know, you can't sit there as a brand and wait for a country to turn its turn itself around. So it's looking at how brands can work with their relationship with Africa and pull out the positives, the innovation, the sporting prowesss, the talent that they've got, and focus on things like that. So if you're sitting there and going, you know, Britain is a difficult place to do commerce for for X, Y and Z reason, this is just an example I'm not suggesting it is or isn't everyone holds their own opinion. But you don't just sit there and complain, you sit there and go well, we as a company have access to some of the best and brightest from these colleges, we have partnerships with X, Y, and Z. And so you don't you know, it's accentuate the positive essentially.  We have some interesting articles based on now this is going to put the fear of God into some retailers, isn't it about Black Friday and Christmas. If anyone's going, why the hell are you talking about Black Friday? We've only just finished the last one. Because it takes several quarters to plan for it. 
Holly Ainger  33:09
We already are yeah.
Morag Cuddeford-Jones  33:10
 Yeah, so good to hear Holly's already on it, she didn't even need to read the magazine guys she's already ahead of the game. But that's the fact, and I'm sure I'm no expert, Holly you are but in terms of things like the current supply chain disruption, the current difficulties in getting staff, there's so much you need to be able to plan for now. Because there's so much catastrophe potentially in the future. I don't want to be negative about it. But you know, be prepared. 
Holly Ainger  33:38
Yeah. We're probably planning a little bit earlier as a result of that, to be honest. 
Ben Walker  33:43
Interesting, practical advice, and we're gonna be looking at risk. We're also looking at doing things and thinking of things a different way, which we've done a lot today with the help of Holly Ainger from Nuffield health, Holly thanks very much for joining us and your time and your great insights into how we might manage risk and be supported in our role as marketers taking risks. And thanks to of course, to our editrix of Catalyst, Morag Cuddeford-Jones, thank you both very much for being with us on the podcast today. We're hope to see you again both very soon, indeed. 
Morag Cuddeford-Jones  34:17
Thanks very much Ben.
Holly Ainger  34:18
Thank you. It's been a pleasure.
Ally Cook  34:19
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Ben Walker Host CIM Marketing Podcast
Holly Ainger CMO Nuffield Health
Morag Cuddeford-Jones Editor, Catalyst magazine CIM
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