CIM Marketing Podcast - Episode 59: Should all marketers use social media?
- 09 June 2022
The good, the bad and ugly of social
This episode will:
- Ask whether marketers should question their social media use
- Examine the dangers of social media for marketers
- Forecast the future for a new breed of social platform
Ally Cook 00:01
Welcome to the CIM Marketing Podcast the contents and views expressed by individuals in the CIM Marketing podcast are not necessarily those are the companies for which they work. This series is currently being recorded via web conferencing. We apologise for any issues with the audio
Ben Walker 00:20
Hello everybody and welcome to this CIM marketing podcast and we're joined today I'm delighted to say by Asif Choudry FCIM who is sales and marketing director at Resource and by a golden great of this podcast Miss Gemma Butler, who is marketing director at CIM itself HQ Moor Hall, Asif, Gemma, how are you today?
Gemma Butler 00:43
Great, thank you.
Asif Choudry 00:45
Very good indeed. It's a pleasure to be on. So I'm a huge fan of the podcast. So I feel quite honoured and privileged to be here. So thank you for the invite
Ben Walker 00:52
Kind words kind words, I said, thanks very much. Social media, social media, social media, we seem to hear about very little else nowadays, how to leverage your social media, how to better engage your audience with social media, how to improve your commercials through social media? Is it time to take a step back and ask do we always need social media as marketers? And if we do need it? When do we need it? And how should we use it? And are we really aware of the potential drawbacks with it? Asif, do you use social media?
Asif Choudry 01:32
I do. Twitter and LinkedIn are my platforms of choice. I have dabbled in the past with Facebook, and Instagram. And neither of those experiences lasted very long, because for me, I use it primarily,well only for my career, and connecting with old school friends. To be honest with you, if those people I don't speak to after I left school, there's a reason for that. And Facebook's a very personal, it's become a hugely personal one. But I know it's big on b2c, but Instagram, I tried it as very little conversation that goes on Instagram, it's a broadcast channel for me. And that's not how I engage with people who are going to help me in my career and business. So yeah, Twitter and LinkedIn to me,
Ben Walker 02:18
You've already alluded there to some drawbacks of it. Of the ones that you do use. Are you particularly careful how you use it? Or do you just use it for anything and everything.
Asif Choudry 02:29
I use them both. I've been on LinkedIn for for years. And it was always a kind of thing. If you, if you were in a job and you were doing business, then you kind of had to be on it. 20 years ago, 15 years ago, it was for people who network are needed to network before social media, that was probably the main platform for me. So I think it was one of those things, you had to be on there. And Twitter, I find that since 2009, when I started on my account, there has been hugely influential for business and it's not, you know, work life balance and all that kind of stuff.
For me, it's there is there is no divide now, because that human element that everybody's kind of looking for. It's It's the old trait of great networking, relationship building, the main benefit is now I can do it. I don't have to be, you know, you don't have to reserve a chamber breakfast or a BNI breakfast meeting to meet people anymore, Digital's made it far easier to do what good networkers have always been able to do, but had to go somewhere to do it. So it's been hugely successful. from a business point of view. Probably over 80% of our business comes through somebody seeing a post on LinkedIn and Twitter. It's been phenomenal. People are talking about community building now. Eight years ago, I don't even think that term was a thing. And it's just happened, we've been able to get people into a conversation and keep them there, which, ordinarily, you'd have to do through experiential events and things like that. So it's been good.
Ben Walker 04:03
So that's a fairly emphatic case study of social media when used in the right way benefiting you in your business and in your career and Gemma Butler with us today Director of Marketing at CIM, have you had a similar experience Gemma, how social media been for you as a career booster?
Gemma Butler 04:19
I think from a career I mean, social media for me has been, I've not really got that involved in it. If I'm honest, in a major way, I've never had a Facebook account, I'm proud to say, I just I never got it when it first came out. I never understood why people cared what you had for breakfast, what your relationship status was, it just, it just made me think it was a little bit sort of you living in your echo chamber and it's sort of you just it felt a bit vain. I tried Instagram. It was okay, but didn't really see the benefit of it.
The only one I do is LinkedIn and in terms of benefiting my career Uh, I'd say, you know, it's, it's probably only in the last two years that I've really actually started using it to, to its full potential as I see, and that sort of come from my work with CIM, but also my sustainability work. So I've built one of the most amazing networks on LinkedIn. And, you know, I really do see a huge amount of value in in that space for meeting people, for having conversations for finding out you know, what people think about things. And I guess for me, it's, it's really about spreading the word and raising awareness and educating people through the work I do and pointing them, you know, into, into different areas for them to have a look at but also introducing people and asking people what their views and recommendations are.
Ben Walker 05:47
Right. So Asif we're to know, we're to know to yeses, it's great for your career to Yes, it's great for your business. Gemma was a late adopter to it. She says it as a business tool, but she's embraced it. And it's working for her. But she said in a personal capacity, she used an interesting word that she said is a little bit vain, suggesting it's a little bit superficial, a little bit vacuous, perhaps. And do you think away from the business side of using social media, marketers have a duty to use it in the personal capacity? Should they even be using it in a personal capacity? If it's just a glorified Looking Glass?
Asif Choudry 06:23
I don't think, that, that's a that's a great question. I think it's a, it's an important point, too, that will probably divide many people, because you know, there's a lot of talk about marketers, then, you know, most marketers are having to either be at the heart of digital marketing or are responsible for it. So they're either executing campaigns on it, or they're, they're responsible for campaigns that are executed on those channels. So they've got to be an understanding of that just in the same way, I don't think it's any different from that perspective. And they need to understand it, like they would have done door drop marketing, or outdoor out of home advertising, radio adverts, etc, that still need to understand it from that perspective for the job.
But from a personal point of view, I think that's entirely up to the individual what they want to share, there's definitely an element of the human side of people that, you know, is available, and people have their own choice whether they should or shouldn't share anything. Personally, I do share personal stuff on there. And it certainly helps from a career perspective. It's part of personal branding now, because personal branding, the personal bit, is a key operative word in that term. For me personally, definitely, that people should let you into that, that human side of yourself, because that is what relationship building is all about. You know.
So from a personal branding point of view, I think, personal means you are sharing stuff that's happening, definitely to you at work, because you know, most people, you're going to need it at some point in your career, either when you're looking for a new job. And I find on LinkedIn, people start to take interest in the personal brand, when they need it, which is completely the wrong time to do it. Because you should be always investing, it's no different to CPD, you've got to invest in his personal brand. And if that's the occasional work related post, and nothing personal, that's fine.
But I think as you become more comfortable with it, you know, what you are comfortable sharing. And that's a personal choice, and that there's no prerequisite there are no rules of engagement that say, you must share a picture of your family once a week. If you want to do that, then go ahead and do that. I've done it this morning, both my daughters who are Muslim, you know, the school cello primary, so shout out to them. They're massive on diversity and inclusion, there's an Eid assembly today. And they had to do a PowerPoint presentation for it. So it was great to talk them through that, but also to just celebrate the school for doing that. So that's a personal post. But I often find personal posts have got me more engagement. Not I'm not that I'm here for the likes. But they often get the most responses and engagement than those carefully curated content posts that you create that take you three months to put together.
Ben Walker 09:25
Yeah, I mean, that is absolutely fascinating. Gemma Butler that actually, the personal branding, the personal element of social media can be a more powerful tool for business than the out and out business tool given that, should we all be using it should companies be able to demand that as marketers we use it?
Gemma Butler 09:45
I think. Do you know what I was thinking about this before? Before we started and I think there's three areas there. There's your organization's social media channels and accounts and what the conversations that are had and what they do and within those platforms, I think, then there's you as a person, as a person as an individual with your account. And I think how you use that account, what you use just what you say on that account, what you posted on that account, will probably determine whether there is scope to turn it into an account that you can use within your career. And I think, you know, that is something that people need to consider, is this something that can evolve into that sort of space. And I think then in the middle, there's you as a digital marketer, social media manager. And I think that's where the grey area comes.
That's where the lines are blurred. And I think this comes from the fact that, you know, there is no clear definition now, with social media of you at home and you in your job, you know, you're always contactable, you're always connected. And you know, remember when you used to go to school, and once you left school, they had to phone you on the landline, nobody could get ahold of you. And I think, you know, you're on social media has just connected you 24/7 now. So I think there's a real grey area in the middle. And what you do with your personal account is entirely up to you. But that doesn't necessarily automatically make it viable as an account that you would then move into your work depending on what you've posted on there.
So I think that's a considered choice that people need to look at that. And if you are thinking about building a personal brand up through social media, I think you need to look at what you've done in your personal life and what you have posted and what you've liked, and all of those things before you make that leap.
Ben Walker 11:27
Have you ever had any negative experiences of using a personal social media account?
Gemma Butler 11:31
No, but I think that's because I'm really, really careful not to be subjective. If something triggers me emotionally in terms of the stuff that happens on the on the social platform that I do use, I don't respond in a way that is emotive because I think that's where that line, blurred line comes. So I try to remain objective. And, and stay away from anything that triggers me I focus if something does trigger me, I write it down, and then I delete it.
Ben Walker 12:01
Have you Asif, have you ever any negative experiences?
Asif Choudry 12:07
I was talking about this the other day with with Comms Hero. Back probably eight years ago, we had after our first ever event, which we had a fantastic feedback for, and lots of, you know, praise and acclaim. And it was really great. And in fact, people wanted more of it. But it was my first experience of social media haters. And which was quite a strange experience. Because that that was a kind of pivotal moment for me because it was the first time that I experienced any negativity because I and it did make me question, do I really need to be on here, because I'm using it for work? And I sought the advice of some colleagues and also some experienced connections that I know I knew at the time. And they gave me some good advice in terms of just taking a step back.
And to kind of echo Gemma's point up, you kind of just what you aren't doing is you're putting yourself in the firing line, both for positive acclaim and feedback, but also negative. And you've got to accept that it comes with the territory. And if you're not happy with both of those, then stay off it. Because if you're doing the positive stuff, well, you are going to attract haters. But take that as a compliment because you are being heard. And you will be heard by more positive people, if that's what you're doing. And that's what you're there for. Then you will the haters. So eight years ago, it was a strange experience. And one I did take a step back, it was literally six people. And eight years on comms her as a brand has continued to grow and evolve and, and get bigger and better.
And but you have to be mindful that things are going to happen. And, you know, running the comms, they're a brand somebody actually did send. Well, it was a bit of a not very nice comment directed at me personally, through the Contact Us form on the Comms Hero website. So that wasn't directed at me openly on social media. And I thought wow, that's that was only last year and I thought wow, that's strange. I've never seen anyone use the Contact Us form to troll anyone. But, it did happen. So but it is, you know, another part of being digitally accessible, you have to accept and that is something you're going to come across but the good debt for me personally the good has far outweighed the bad. Definitely.
Ben Walker 14:44
That's a very rational and risen view of it, and you know, congratulations to take that but actually, the greater the amount of love, the greater the amount of hate they go in tandem. So if you're getting a lot of hate, you're probably getting big, big, bigger love If you like, but nevertheless, Gemma Butler, can it sometimes be dangerous to be on social media and to expose ourselves in this way, particularly a profession, like marketing, where we're putting ourselves out there a personal space, in most cases and in the business space every day.
Gemma Butler 15:16
I think, you know, there's always a danger when you put yourself out into a social space, because let's face it, the majority of people who don't even know who they are, we don't know who they are, you know, they may not even be who they say they are. But I think there's a clear difference between somebody trolling somebody and being personal. And, you know, just not very, not very nice, in some case, you know, really horrible versus being challenged. And, you know, and having people ask you questions, not agreeing with what you're saying. And if people don't agree with what you say, that's absolutely fine.
And you know, and I'm happy to always have an objective discussion with somebody and exchange points of view, that is absolutely, you know, valid. And that's what happens when you put your points of view out there, or, or, you know, a piece of content. And, you know, I would welcome that people challenge on those things, because that's kind of what social media should be doing, isn't it? I mean, social media is about social, it's about having conversation and conversation is two ways. And it doesn't always have to be everybody agreeing with everybody. I think there's just a very clear difference when it crosses the line, I think it becomes very, very evident. And that's the piece that I think people really struggle with, because that that's the algorithms drive that negativity to the top because they need to keep you on the page don't they?
Ben Walker 16:33
Indeed, and it does sometimes cross the line. And let's be honest, there are countless examples. And it is across the line, and it has caused some horrific outcomes. I mean, we asked here, this is a LinkedIn poll run this month. So very recent, whether your company provides mental health or additional support for staff regularly using social media. So does it provide mental health support or some sort of additional support for your staff using social media?
Quite a big response to this poll, more than 500 people wrote in only 15% of people who wrote in said that they did get that support through that company. 76% said no, with 7%, saying, they hope it will happen in the future and a couple of percent, who never use social media. But nevertheless, that's three quarters, more than three quarters of companies are not providing any support in an area where we know it can cross the line, and that sometimes outcomes can be pretty awful. Asif, should we be doing more as some sort of security backup, given that a lot of marketers are exposed to this, as we say seven days a week, 365 days a year?
Asif Choudry 17:40
Yeah, I would agree. And when I saw the results from the poll, I don't know if it? I don't think it surprised me. Because the, if you if the question was didn't have the word social media, does your company provide mental health support? I think that would have been, yes, 75/80%, right. Because that's, especially during the pandemic. But that's come as a result of people's screentime and the pandemic conditions of lockdown, and so on and so forth, that have kind of exaggerated and accelerated those mental health problems for a lot of people. But when you tag on social media, is that specifically in marketing terms? Social media managers, they're part of this always on culture? So I think definitely, social media needs to be picked out as a specific cause of mental health, and dealt with probably in a different way than, you know, putting it into mental health as a general point.
Ben Walker 18:44
They are always on. I mean, they are always on, should they be always on, you know, should we actually say to our marketers, and our teams, that we should limit in the same way that a truck driver is limited by how far he can drive and how long he can drive for in any one period? Should we be putting limits on the time that people spend on this thing?
Gemma Butler 19:03
I don't think you can restrict how long people are on social media. I mean, look, I mean, even the phone, the smartphones give you the screen times and you know, there's parental locks and all sorts of you can do but ultimately, I don't think you can restrict it. I think if if you have social media managers, which every company probably does in their organisations, you know, there, there should obviously be clear, defined timeframes within the working hours that you are expected to do your role and outside of those working hours that you're not. But unfortunately, if somebody says something to you at 5:30 will you'll carry that home with you and probably lead it mull around in your head.
I think, you know, there is absolutely no doubt that social media has had an enormously negative impact on people's mental health. You only have to Google it and yours just there's more research, you know what to do with regards to young people, actually, people have across all generations where it's had a very, very detrimental impact. but to our to how we how we think and how we see ourselves and how we compare ourselves to others. But I think, you know, it's here, and it's not going anywhere. And I think it's about I guess, giving people the support, but also, you know, people understanding what it is, it is, what it is, and how they manage that is, you know, in some part down to them and their behaviours as well.
Ben Walker 19:03
If we're not about limiting time, or, you know, putting restrictions on temporarily on people who, who do good stuff, but may be affected by the bad stuff, should we be limiting the amount of people who can use it? You know, should there be a policy where three strikes in your eyes, some people seem to go out of their way to troll and spread hate and be unpleasant to people on social media, they, for the most part, are so far allowed to continue on doing so? Should there be some sort of regulation, which people who have got a track record in trolling or even cyber bullying can be removed from this thing easily? And quickly?
Asif Choudry 20:58
Yeah, I think there's definitely a case for that. And that's always the bit that has astounded me not necessarily on LinkedIn, because although LinkedIn has over the last probably three to four years, become more personable rather than work. You still have people putting disclaimers in sorry for the work related posts of personal post I don't normally put personal posts on, but certainly for you'll see more of that on Twitter, you know, it's meant to be a free speech platform. So there is that dilemma? Does, what does free speech actually mean to, you know, you have to accept that, but there should be some regulation for people where it starts to turn into things that are going to affect people or, you know, from a mental health point of view, or threats physically, and things like that. And all this stuff does go on. But there are, you know, but I think there's always going to be huge amounts of really good stuff in in social media that are going to keep people there.
And it's interesting, generally, you mentioned before about the algorithms, putting all the negative stuff to the top and I recently recorded a podcast with Ally Cook from CIM, where we talking about Johann Hari and Stolen focus and lost connections, I have to admit, I listened to Stolen Focus on Audible. And it was a real game changer for me. And I did actually download after watching the social feeds on CIM Summit, Weare8, because I kind of got what WeAre8 was about that was a real game changer in terms of that, you know, regulating time, regulating people, you kind of get put into, you know, into this rabbit hole of content, infinite content, because it's being served up to you.
And only when you actually listen or read something like Stolen Focus, will it change your perceptions on how you use social media, it won't necessarily tell you don't use it anymore. But use it in a considered way. I'm not a big fan of digital detox, and I'm not really done one, you kind of know yourself, it's no different to any physical ailment, if your knees hurting, then don't go for a run. You know, if you need some downtime, or you need some headspace, then the last thing you want to do open a social media app, don't do it, you know, the same rules of engagement apply to, but I appreciate as well, on the on the flip side. People do need guidance as to how to be supported on that. But ultimately, an individual makes their own decision when, when and how often how long they have the phone in their hand.
Gemma Butler 23:32
And I think you know, it's Stolen Focus is exactly what absolutely changed my view or opened my eyes. Should I say to the facts is that behind it because he interviewed he interviewed over 250 people for that book. And you know, it's clear and Sue Fennessy WeAre8 said exactly the same thing. The technology is there to turn off the hate or to remove the people who are you know, putting those hateful comments out there, technology is there for social media platforms to validate and verify the people that are on there. So they cannot be faceless. And they have multiple accounts where they there's no absolutely no way of finding out who they are.
They choose not to. And you know, and Johann Hari is very clear that they choose not to and you know, he spoke about negative bias. If you're going down the motorway, and there's a flower on one side and a car crash on the other, you naturally look at the car crash and that's the algorithms that feed effectively that negative bias that we absolutely seem to be attracted to. But interestingly, in CIM's CMO survey and report that we did the CMO 50, more CMOs are asked are calling for regulation on social media than ever before in terms of the advertising and what businesses put out on there you know, in terms of children and gambling, and you know, obesity and all of these subjects that are damaging society there absolutely would welcome more regulation in and around that area and you know, green claims carried around greenwashing, exactly the same welcome regulation.
Ben Walker 25:03
Some platforms are swamped in advertising. Now Instagram has gone from being the world's photo album to basically a selection of adverts interspersed by the occasional photograph, what's often happened Asif is that platforms have become extremely popular for a time they've done either got swamped with advertising, or they've been taken over by trolls or they've just become unfashionable. And they've died out. Obviously, the two of the biggest at the moment that we talk about frequently, most of all, perhaps are Instagram and Tiktok. Do you expect that they will go the way of the MySpaces and the Friends Reunited or some place and be replaced by something else?
Asif Choudry 25:38
I don't think there will. You know, there probably was a trend a few years ago that platforms came and went. But I think that whole the sophistication of the algorithms and the retargeting, follow me popup advert society that we live in, keeps you in these spaces, so that, you know, it's serving up content that with the sophisticated algorithms is, in some cases, pretty accurate, to be honest with you, you know, so the I had to google some of the stats to find out so I'm not I'm not one I don't you know, I've never looked at when was Instagram created in 2010 and has over a billion users worldwide and Tik Tok 2017. And it's risen from 54 million users in 2017 to 1.2 billion in 2021. So those stats suggest they're not going anywhere, and they're here for the long haul, and they're becoming more popular.
Ben Walker 26:32
Do you think they'll evolve, Gemma Butler or be replaced by something new entirely?
Gemma Butler 26:36
Well, I think, you know, it's become clear that we are the product on social media, you know, if we have all the time we're watching Social Media, and those ads are being served up, it gives a reason why brands will not move away from you know, just ultimately putting out as many ads as they can across platforms, because the eyes are there. Now, we know that the engagement rates are exceptionally low. But that fear of not being in that space, and you'll get missed, it continues to live. But I think that there is a difference between potential future coming.
WeAre8, as we've mentioned before, it's you know, it doesn't have any, it doesn't have any algorithms. It's a hate free space, you have to verify and validate who you are, before you can make comments. And it's got some really amazing technology built into it where if you know, if you do make comments, or use certain words that are deemed to be, you know, hateful or not things that you say, it will actually message you in a in a nice way. And just say you sure you want to say that, and hopefully make you think before you hit post.
And I think that is a really interesting concept that you can also leave the platform and have a look at other stuff that encourages you to leave the platform, whereas most keep you in. And then interestingly, I saw the other week, a new platform called supernova that's come out. Again, one that's about taking all of the money made, and I think they donate 50% of all of that money to charity. So these platforms are starting to pop up now. And and I think the they're starting to essentially come out into the market as I think people realise that we are the product for social media.
Ben Walker 28:19
That's interesting, isn't it? I suppose that there's a recognition by some of these Neo social platforms, WeAre8, Supernova that we are the product, but they say okay, we accept that let's deal with it and manage it in a better way be nicer about it. And in WeAre8's case this is a fairly new platform is backed by footballer, Rio Ferdinand and others, they actually pay users to watch ads. So instead of as I say, I was whining earlier about Instagram, which is now swamped with ads, which I have to watch with are like it or not, and we are you you actually paid to watch the ads in order to use the platform. So they are accepting that the users are the product but they're being a lot nicer about it, Asif?
Asif Choudry 29:02
They are and I think I do hope we are right gains, the traction that while the whole purpose behind it deserves and warrants. But that's going to be a decision from individuals that you know, I don't know what it is, you know, all that hate and controversy that's in Twitter that keeps people there you know, so I hope people do migrate I downloaded it. And it wasn't the fact of being paid for watching ads that was the reason for it, it was the purpose behind it. And but because I'm not using social media to consume personal news and things like that, then that was the other debate for me. Will my business contacts also be on there will my networks be on there?
That's a key consideration for me because that is genuinely the reason I use social for but it was brilliant to see that purpose behind it and I do hope it does, it takes over the likes of Twitter and you know, I can migrate onto there. And that becomes my platform of choice. Because all those negative elements, they're just they're not there doesn't need to be there. I sincerely hope it does and good on WeAre8. For for being, you knows the challenger brand of, of social media, isn't it, and as a marketer, we should welcome them, it'd be interesting to see the journey as it progresses,
Ben Walker 30:23
Do you think we'll end up with a new era where, you know, some of the bullying, cyber bullying is regulated, there's less greenwashing, there's more positivity, the values of these platforms are better Gemma Butler, is that a triumph of hope, over experience?
Gemma Butler 30:38
I would love that to be the case. And it's something absolutely in my work that I am driving and pushing for with everything I have. more so because I think, you know, the next generation coming up, you know, they shouldn't have to have to deal with these sorts of things and be exposed to the, to the to what's currently out there. So, you know, even at the site at the CIA and sustainability Summit, you know, Rio Ferdinand that made the point of not everyone's going to migrate over and then there still is a space for Twitter and there still be a space for LinkedIn, there still be a space for we are right in there still be a space for TikTok, it's what you choose to do on those platforms.
But ultimately, it will show you that there is a better place, you know, and that there is a better way of doing stuff. And actually that people have the power people have the power to drive the change. And I think that's, that's probably the biggest mindset change if we're going to take on the environmental crisis and the cost of living crisis, that people have a voice and you know, we need to start using our voices.
Ben Walker 31:34
So social media, generally good thing is if lots of love on there, some interesting developments and more positive developments and some innovative platforms coming forward. But we know that it's that social media generally is not an unflawed thing, it's something we have to be aware of the negatives as well, what would be quickfire question to finish both of you your advice to marketers, who will continue and may have to continue using social media, some of the legacy platforms as well, we hope some of the newer, more enlightened platforms, use them both personally and professionally.
Asif Choudry 32:07
I'd say, you know, start, start the journey now. And don't be afraid to big yourself up. So if you do receive a certificate from CIM, if that's your chosen body, then you should post it on there. Not only do you get engagement, but it's also you know, your next career move if that is, you know, the thing now with people moving jobs as they do more regularly, recruiters, HR professionals, they will Google you before they read your CV.
And if you don't have a digital footprint, it's probably more harmful, especially in marketing, that they can't find anything on you. And if they do find something, it doesn't want to only be the personal stuff on your Facebook account on your or your opinions on your local football team or whatever it is, professional content is absolutely crucial. And that is the modern day networker relationship builder. You kinda need to be on there to be honest with you. And that's where your audience is.
Gemma Butler 33:08
I think is brands absolutely use social media I think but just kind of be mindful. The fact that it's a place for conversation and conversation goes two ways, you know, you can get so much information out of social media in terms of what people think of your brand, the sentiment, don't use it as a broadcast channel because that's not what it was ultimately designed for. And you know, just just take the value out of it and have have something to say and you know, and I guess just use it to draw, drive your business forward on a personal level, you know, use it to build up your personal brand, there is no rush to build your personal brand.
I keep seeing posts around why do I need a personal brand at the very start of my career. I didn't start building my personal brand as I said til two years ago because I didn't think anyone cared about what I had to say enough. So I just didn't say it. That's me being completely honest. And then I found my purpose and now now you can't stop me but you know, I think personally, yes, absolutely. Use social media, but go in with your eyes open and know that it can be really, really toxic, awful place. And just try and not look at that. Just like you would not look at the media every day. If it started to damage your mental health. As I said, if you had a broken leg, you wouldn't go for a run.
Ben Walker 34:24
You've got a broken leg. Don't go for a run, but otherwise enjoy your running. Gemma Butler, Asif Choudry, thank you very much indeed. What a brilliant, brilliant show we've had today. Thank you.
Ally Cook 34:37
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