Episode 101: The new secrets of LinkedIn success

00:03  
Intro:  

Welcome to the CIM Marketing podcast. The contents and views expressed by individuals in the CIM Marketing Podcast are their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the companies they work for. We hope you enjoy the episode.      

00:16  
Host: 
Hello everybody, and welcome to the CIM Marketing podcast. And you know, there have been big changes to one of our favourite social media platforms, LinkedIn, big changes to the algorithm, and that has many repercussions for marketers and may change the way they master their social media strategy. And to talk about all of this and more, is Mr. Luke Brynley-Jones, and Luke is founder and MD of the specialist B2B social agency OST. And he is also a founder user of LinkedIn itself, being there from day one when it launched in the early noughties. And he is with us today. And Luke, how are you, sir? 

00:57 
Luke: 
Yeah, very well thank you. Yeah, thrilled to be on, always pleased to work with CIM. So yeah, delighted to be here on a sunny day as well. 

01:05 
Host: 
Beautiful, glorious day. I can barely see such as the sun streaming through my patio doors. Yes, a beautiful day. And some major changes to LinkedIn, changes to the algorithm. What's been going on? 

01:20 
Luke: 
Yeah, so it was really started sort of 18 months ago now. So tail end of 2022, early 2023, LinkedIn made some changes to the algorithm that were picked up on by kind of analysts around the world. And the great thing about it was it's one of the first times we've been able to look at before and after and start to figure out what the algorithm actually does. So it set off people like me to sort of look into that and certain things that became really apparent. They started to reduce reach, engagement levels, follower growth counts. We started to see that happening for a lot of the bigger accounts, a lot of the people who rely on LinkedIn for their income. So that created a bit of stir. And then we started to look at why this happened as well, and that sort of became apparent based on what had happened previously with the pandemic. So during the pandemic, LinkedIn grew dramatically, it was growing at sort of 10% during those years, which is pretty phenomenal, given its at a billion users already, so 100 million users being added each year. But what they find it was the quality of content start to drop off. So, you know, the Facebookification of LinkedIn started to happen, and people noticed that. 

02:36 
Host: 
So junk posts or lots of reiterations, what sort of stuff? How did it present? 

02:41 
Luke: 
Bluntly, selfies from people you don't know was the kind of the basics of it. So you start to see these random influencers you don't know, you don't really care about them, and suddenly they're in your feed. So people push back on that, professional users who want to see good quality content. So LinkedIn made these changes, and it was they redefined the criteria of the algorithm to share your content and that really had a dramatic impact. So people have had to realign their strategies, and that's what I spent the last 12 months doing for our clients, basically shifting things around.  

03:16 
Host: 
What do you think are the main implications for marketers of these changes? What are the key things that are going to change about their strategy, or should change about their strategy born of these changes?  

03:28 
Luke: 
They’re all good, frankly. I mean, if it means there's less stuff in your feed, you know, fantastic. But they're also quite difficult, especially for larger enterprises. So one of the things is you need to focus on a specific target audience. So you need to be publishing thought leadership content for a specific audience who is receptive to that and clearly interested in that. So then, if you're a massive brand, and you've got multiple audiences with multiple subject matters and you've got one LinkedIn page, suddenly that becomes a pain. So, we're seeing brands having to develop keyword strategies where they're feeding in, much like you would with SEO, feeding into one sort of keyword, but with sub keywords for different topics. And that's a difficult thing to do for a brand. So that's one thing. The other thing is, you've got to be much more conversational. So you've got to be driving engagement. Comments, meaningful comments have become the key metric for LinkedIn. So not just, great post Ben, it has to be something that includes, ideally, your keywords and phrases, so they're relating it to your topic more than a paragraph long, and those people posting it also have to be relevant to your topic as well, and all of these factors contribute to how far your next post will go. So these are all signals LinkedIn is taking in and going right, Ben's posting good stuff, he's got specific audience. They're loving it. We're going to serve more of his content to that audience. And that's what you want, basically, if you're if you're kind of really playing the algorithm.  

05:05 
Host: 
So the danger is, I suppose, for marketers, is they produce sort of fairly static, sort of non-liquid posts that don't go anywhere, that don't get interaction, that don't create engagement, and they sort of get frozen out in the LinkedIn wilderness where they don't get reheated and reproduced and reposted, they just get stuck and no one sees them. 

05:24 
Luke: 
Well, that's it, yeah. The metrics make that really clear as well. So we've seen, between 2022, 2023 content from kind of non experts, halved in terms of its reach. So if you're not posting stuff that is clearly thought leadership your reach was diminishing. Company posts went down around 70% in terms of the reach as well. But we've seen creators, and this is LinkedIn getting it on the Creator game here, theirs has doubled in that period in terms of the reach they're achieving with their posts. And we're seeing twice so many ads as well, promoted posts and ads. So if you're not in on the Creator game, you've lost out in the last couple of years. 

06:09 
Host: 
What sorts of things work and don't work? There's features that arrived fairly recently, company pages, short form video content to mobile, and you're probably going to tell me about a few other interesting features that have arrived. Within that portfolio, what tend to work and what tend to founder?  

06:28 
Luke: 
Well just in terms of the posts that work, there's some really clear data on things like video, still very effective. I'll talk a minute about a sort of short form video approach that LinkedIn are taking now as well, PDF posts as well. So PDF sliders, as we know them, have been really, really good for driving engagement. LinkedIn have just changed the algorithm a few months ago to make them slightly less effective, because everyone was just posting them frantically to drive up engagement. But the key thing is that you need to mix up your format. So if you just post one format repeatedly, you'll see your engagement dropping off, rather your reach dropping off, and subsequently, engagement as well. So you've got to be mixing up your formats. LinkedIn likes that healthy mix. In terms of the new features. So the thing that came out earlier this year were premium pages. So we've seen this on other channels. So Twitter has, you know, x has it now, has premium offerings there, where you get some benefits. Same on Facebook, you can make your pages premium. So LinkedIn have done that at the moment. It's $100 or $99 to upgrade your page, and that's a monthly fee. And what you get for that, frankly, is a mixed bag of benefits. And there's a golden badge. I don't know how many people really want that and care about that, not many companies, but two I would pick out that are worthwhile. So one is you get to see who's viewed your page. So that's pretty handy. The only problem with that is, last time I saw it was being throttled to just a tiny handful of people, so it doesn't show you everybody, which, again, if you're a massive brand, it's going to be a minimal benefit for you. The one that is worth it, I would say, is the fact that you can switch a little option on to auto invite people who engage with your content to follow your page so that we're seeing results for, we've done that as a company. We're doing it for our clients, and we've seen follower counts really pick up as a result of that. 

08:36 
Host: 
That's not only a time saver, it is also a very targeted tool, isn't it? It's the difference between trying to invite a cold lead and a warm lead. It's effectively inviting the warm leads automatically.  

08:51 
Luke: 
So it's exactly that, and if you're doing your content strategy right. So as I just said, you've got to focus on engagement. You’ve got to focus on your specific target audience. If you're really getting that done right, it should be a really great audience that you're bringing on board as followers. So it works really well, yeah, along with a clever posting strategy. 

09:12 
Host: 
But the key there is that a mix, and that's something marketers got to hold in mind. The danger you seem to be suggesting is that you find something that works for your company. You've mentioned the PDF Niagara that was very popular until very recently. And then you think, well, that's that works, and we'll do it almost to the exclusion of anything else. And if you do that, you're heading down into another backwater. 

09:35 
Luke: 
Yeah, and we've seen it. I mean, the year before, it was polls. You started to get polls about how annoyed are you for seeing polls on LinkedIn, things like that, so that there was a backlash against those as well. But I think smart marketing teams are learning now you've got to have that mix. Yes, get a poll in there, but make sure your next post is a video or a PDF or something. With regards to video and short form video in particular, we've seen this obviously on other platforms, Tiktok has emerged and has been the fastest growing platform in the last few years, Facebook and others, YouTube, have got in on the short form video bandwagon. So LinkedIn earlier this year started experimenting with a short form video feed, and we saw it first in the US, and this was added to the to the mobile app as kind of a primary button at the bottom of the app, and you could click into that, and it's just video, and it's just portrait format, Tiktok style videos with an endless feed coming down the page. So Tiktok within LinkedIn, if you like, and what they were doing was pretty much just shoehorning all the video content into one feed and having it there. So you'd see video that wasn't created in portrait form wedged in there as well. That looked awful. So this is now rolled out. We've got it in the UK now we've got in other countries. It is there. It is a prominent feed, and certainly for younger LinkedIn users who are more familiar with that. And when I say younger, I mean anyone under like 45 here. You know, TikTok’s user base. It goes all across the age groups here, but that is starting to become one of the primary places that they are going and looking for content. So what that says to brands is you've got to be looking at portrait form video. You've got to be thinking short form video, 30 seconds to a minute, and publishing that content specifically for that feed now, and it will be in your main feed as well. But actually, that feed is going to be increasingly important. So that's a big new development. And we still haven't seen any stats really around this. I'm just watching people using it and picking up the lessons from that, but I guess one of the things I am seeing is that some of the reach that people are getting within that feed is phenomenal. So you're getting people who've got maybe a couple of 1000 followers, they maybe get a few 1000 views on a post, if their post gets featured in the new video feed, they're getting half a million views. It's Tiktok style metrics that we're getting into. And that's a really exciting development if you've ever tried to get content viewed on LinkedIn.  

12:13 
Host: 
It is exciting. It's interesting  you mention Tiktok because, perhaps the stereotype, the perceived wisdom is that portrait form, video is something B2C, or even a C2C, type platform, Tik Tok being perhaps the more extreme example of that. Do you adopt the sort of techniques and ideas that you might use on a platform like tiktok or Instagram to do a B2B, portrait form video on LinkedIn. Or do you have to change your mentality completely? 

12:50 
Luke: 
Yeah, that's really interesting, because it is a clash of cultures there. So certainly the selfie is still, you know, I'm seeing that on LinkedIn as the predominant format. And it is engaging. It's inherently engaging. You've got somebody there talking to you, but, going back to my previous point about thought leadership, and getting that kind of targeted, educating content across to individuals is still part of the algorithm, so it still will be judged on those kind of KPIs and metrics and requirements. But interestingly, the short form video there's less emphasis on comments, so you don't get as many comments., It's not that kind of medium, so you're not getting those signals coming through. So I think it's good for reach, and it's good for the broadcasters and the influencer type people. It's not so good if you really want to build your following, if you want to be engaging with those targeted audiences. So it does conflict slightly. I would agree with LinkedIn’s overall message, but it's early days. We'll see how it pans out. They may can it next year. You never know. 

13:55 
Host: 
They may can it. Or marketers may work out the puzzle. You know that they say, well, we're not going to get necessarily many customer insights from this, because people tend not to comment. They tend to just like it, or, you know, send stars and hearts or whatever if they like the video. But they may find some other outputs from this or this format that they weren't expecting, or perhaps others I'm envisaged. 

14:15 
Luke: 
Yeah, absolutely, but we'll have to wait and see on this one, I'm afraid. But that's the great thing about this industry, is everything changes and surprises. Sometimes features get ditched, others get brought in, and it's constantly evolving.  

14:29 
Host: 
It is indeed and talking of talking of which, LinkedIn itself, of course, is constantly evolving. And what I suspect lots of people will be listening to this podcast is, why has it done all this? And of course, one of the things we do know, correct me if I'm wrong, is that actually, LinkedIn has been struggling somewhat to keep its users on its site long enough to monetise them. Why is that, and is that connected to this sort of change of this change of algorithm? 

14:57 
Luke: 
Yeah, I think so. So that sort of problem they've had is longer term, now we're talking the last decade probably LinkedIn has been really tackling this. And it stems from its original positioning as somewhere where you go to get a job, fundamentally. And so there are a lot of people traditionally who’ve not used it as an engagement platform or a social network. They've gone there when they have to, they've updated their profile as a CV. So I think, I mean, it's already quite outdated as a summation, I think of LinkedIn. It's the last six, seven years, certainly since Microsoft acquired the platform, a lot of money has been put into driving up engagement, making it more sticky. And then it's a very profitable piece of real estate. For Microsoft, they got 15 billion turnover, but half of that surprising, actually, only half of that is from their recruiter features. So the other half is from premium accounts, advertising, all the sort of monetisation on the content. So I think they're certainly going down this route of driving more engagement, becoming much more of a place to go. And it's worth saying as well, they've had record levels of engagement in 2024 so they've actually been doing really, really well in terms of their stickiness. They've added games earlier this year as well, which I was like, oh, no, really? And I put a link to a post out, saying, come on. Is anybody using these? And, you know, I was amazed. I got people who were like, serious people in the industry coming back saying, I love it. I'm playing these every day. They're addictive. 

16:48 
Host: 
Just because actually, people can have LinkedIn on their screen at work in the office, and it looks like they're doing work, and in fact, they're playing Space Invaders.  

16:54 
Luke: 
Well yeah I mean, there's certainly I suppose there are people like me who's whose jobs revolve around platforms like LinkedIn. So if they are in it, they may well occasionally, you know, they get a lunch break, just do a game of sudoku or whatever it is within the platform. But there's some nice little interactive elements too, as well. So you're not just playing a game. You can see other people who've played it. There's a leaderboard, there's gamification in there. So it's actually quite a clever little side hustle, if you like, for LinkedIn to drive up engagement. So that's interesting. And then there's all the other stuff they're doing around this creator world. I mentioned creators are the new kids on the block on LinkedIn, and they're being fated, but they're also being paid, so much as we've seen on other platforms, Tiktok, YouTube, you can get a rev share for the audience that you're reaching and the engagement you're driving. So LinkedIn is bringing in those kind of features as well. So early days at the moment, but we're certainly starting to see testing and moves to share revenue with influencers. And I see that being as soon as that starts to happen, it becomes the industry, engagement is the industry, and that that will really be a shot in the arm. 

18:15 
Host: 
So you think they're getting better at it, as you say, when it stopped for many years, and you see, it's a decade old problem as they had, what they'd done is they cracked this knot, this big problem that people, particularly, some younger people in our sector won't even remember, where that actually going out and applying for a job and sending a CV, and then employers having to sift your CVs, and it was just a ludicrously onerous and burdensome process for both parties. And of course, what LinkedIn did, it cracked that knot. It actually solved the problem. It allowed people to upload their current CVs. Employers could just look at these CVs as long as users had that functionality turned on. You could apply with one click. There wasn't a sort of prolonged letter writing process that happened, and the whole protocol of recruitment became incredibly more efficient and easier. But then people just used it for that for a very long time, with a few exceptions. And what you're saying is that they are now slowly but surely getting better at becoming a social media platform, which is what, of course, LinkedIn is. It's a social media platform for professionals, but it didn't actually present or behave like that until fairly recently? 

19:34 
Luke: 
Absolutely, yeah, the last sort of five or six years, and people who've been following it and using it like myself have been really frustrated with that over the years. There’s probably pieces online of me writing in 2010, 2015, going what the hell is LinkedIn doing? They've got groups. For example, the Groups feature, which was the first really big, professional kind of groups platform, we could go and create a group, and they were really active and really good for the first few years, and then obviously the spammers jumped in, and they became kind of sinkholes for nonsense. But LinkedIn never took a step to fix that. They never decided to take that feature and do what they could have done with it. So this, and they still haven't, frankly, they've done various moves to try and resuscitate groups, but they're still pretty rubbish on the whole. But there's other features. And to their credit, they've really gone to town on and yes, they've evolved the business dramatically in the last, you know, six or eight years certainly. 

20:37 
Host: 
There are positive signs of change for the platform is a fair summation.  

20:42 
Luke: 
Well I think it's probably gone beyond that. Now I think they're racing ahead. We're seeing features thick and fast, every few months, there are quite major new features coming out. And, yeah, it's great to see alive and thriving, and attracting record users and record engagement. So what's not to like? 

21:02 
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21:13 
Host: 
Certainly from my experience of, anecdotally, is that what it has done, which seems to me to be a real triumph. It has actually invited whole new constituencies of people to the platform. It has almost gained a sort of respect and a seniority as a place for senior debate and discussion. We've seen a trend with the rise of the C suite post. Suddenly we've got a post from the chief executive or the chief HR officer or the FD appearing on LinkedIn, and people are interacting with these figures who, perhaps barring other chief executives or other FDs in a very small coterie inner circle if you like, would never otherwise publicly interact. And to me, that's quite an interesting and perhaps a positive trend? 

22:00 
Luke: 
Yeah, absolutely, there's been definitely a strong trend for C suites to be active on LinkedIn. I haven’t got stats to hand but it's been dramatic in the last, five, six years in terms of the percentage that are now deemed active, so posting at least kind of once, or once or twice a month, there's some great things around. So they're human, you've got the human face there, and that always works better on any channel. It's always a bit strange posting as a company, because the company saying something to me, it feels a bit odd. So there's the genuineness of them posting as well, and I think that's important, that comes across both for an internal audience and an external audience. So internally, you want your employees to know that you're leading the line, and there's a lot of corporates that we work with where that's super important, maybe the most important audience they're talking to. But then externally as well, you've got your most powerful, best known individual, or individuals out there, the claiming for the business. So there's a huge opportunity for doing it, just going back to the sort of the algorithm side of things as well. There's some practical reasons for leveraging your C suite as well, because they are extremely well connected, usually. So their networks are absolutely the kind of people you should be talking to. In most instances, they also have connections. So the one thing pages can't have is connections. You can have followers, you can't have connections. So when it comes to the algorithm, those connections are a very, very strong signal that you are or somebody is associated and likes you in your content. Therefore they're more likely to see your content. So your CEO's account, your CMO’s account, whatever, it's going to reach more people, or a higher percentage of people than your company page almost by definition, it's better connected. It's got an audience ready and waiting. So yeah, in terms of seeing the results of that, there's a couple of things going on. One is that we're seeing C suite accounts taken over by internal teams, so PR comms teams, taken for a while, but it's happening a lot more now. So we're seeing programs build up around the C suite for them to effectively be the voice of the company, and have this content already and put out and ready. So the challenge with that though, is that you lack, you start to reduce that humanisation. You reduce those personal connections. You don't have the selfie videos so much. And then it just becomes another kind of corporate voice, a meaningless corporate voice with not much outward engagement, things like that. So you can get it really wrong as well as right with this new trend.  

24:56 
Host: 
I think there's even more challenges to it. To my mind, one is the sort of dual bipartisan nervousness that can occur, nervousness from the marketing team that having to represent the voice of the CEO or some other C suite member, which it brings with it to challenge of valor and bravery, to some degree, and also from the other way around, is the nervousness of C suite, people who, in many cases, won't be used to having a sort of dynamic debate, dynamic discussion with the world on social media. How do you overcome that? First, as a marketer, whose job it is, it lands on your desk one Monday morning, by the way, you're going to be ghost writing for the CEO. Good luck. And also, from the CEO's point of view, by the way, your marketing team are going to be writing posts in your name. Good luck with that.  

25:56 
Luke: 
Yeah. It's fraught with difficulty on this. So, yeah, it depends largely on the sort of personality and interests of the CEO. So you'll get ones who are like brilliant, you just run my account for me, and I'll occasionally look at it, but, they have nothing much to do with it. And then you get others who are very particular and often. So we're based in Cambridge. We have a lot of scientists around here. So often the CEOs are absolute experts on their subject, and they wouldn't let anybody write for them under any circumstances. So then you're in a position where you're like, Okay, so you write it, but we need to format it for LinkedIn. There's certain things we've got to make sure are in there so that people actually get to see it, and when they see it, they want to engage with it. So the way we work typically with clients like that, and we do exec comms with quite a few brands, we manage the presence of some CEOs. It's very much around that. So let's work on an editorial plan together. Let's make sure that you're asking questions. You're not just proclaiming to people. And let's make sure that the formatting is as it as it should be, because even just including line spacing in your posts, including, people hate them, but including emojis at the right point to draw the eye down, and all that good stuff that applies to blogging or any kind of writing like that applies absolutely to LinkedIn. So it's that balance of making sure that you've got the insights from them and making it as genuine as possible, but also formatting it in the way that the algorithm will read it. 

27:34 
Host: 
Couple of things to unpack there. First of all, if you're a marketer, you know that you've got to do this stuff in order to get the engagement, but your professor of nuclear science at Cambridge University says, I don't want my work done down. How do you have that conversation? I'm stereotyping, but this gentleman might be more used to writing letters to the times than having emojis on LinkedIn. How do you overcome that when you've got to, again, to use your phrase that you used earlier in the conversation, a class of cultures, perhaps in some cases? 

28:06 
Luke: 
Because the other factor here, which puts a lot of pressure on is time. So typically, these are the most time poor people in the business so trying to get and sit down with them and thrash through this problem, there's not something you can generally do. So the solutions you can bring to it are video, so sitting down, doing some videos face on, Q and A to make it easier, so they don't have to prep as much, that kind of stuff works really, really well. And then you can potentially take that, write that up, and use that as content. And the other, the other approach is getting them to do a first draft and then coming back to them and getting to review. Time is the massive issue. We would. struggle to get more than half an hour a month with some of these guys that we work with. You've got to do what you can within that time. And often, video is the only way. So I think that's the solution I would venture for. 

29:03 
Host: 
And the other risk presumably, is that you end up with stayed posts that say nothing. That the marketers say, Look, we gotta do this. The CEO, the C suite are perhaps a little bit reluctant to do it. And the marketing team put something forward, and they say, no, we can't say that. And then they revise it, a before, after sort of iteration to reiteration, for it becomes a very bland post that sells nothing and gains no engagement. 

29:27 
Luke: 
Yeah, and this is the same for corporate posts. The bigger the company, the higher propensity for blandness in their LinkedIn communication. So again, the companies we work with, our mission is fundamentally to try and make sure they are interesting and engaging and putting out genuine insights, whether it's on their corporate channels or from the CEO, and more often than not, we fail to some extent in doing that, because they have brand teams. They have all these different teams will feed, say oh we can't say that, we're not open to communication around that. And you end up cutting the edges of what would have been a really edgy, exciting post. But that’s the world we live in these days. So if you can do, you can educate all the way through the business, stick a rock all the way through to the top that the more interesting we are, the more reach we have, the more engagement we get, the better the company will do. Then fantastic. That works. But yeah, in our industry, we tend to have to work with these monoliths within the business who prevent that often. 

30:35 
Host: 
But the general gist is to do as much as you can and keep trying. 

30:39 
Luke: 
Exactly. There’s a little stat I'll throw out there as well, which is, because the flip side is promotional content, so that the two major issues with corporate content at any level are, they're either boring and dulled down and same, all content marketing type stuff, or their sales and promotional and straight off the bat, if you put out a post that feels promotional, and it might just be, hey, we're at this stand at this event, come and see us. It's promotional. Or, here's our new ebook, that will hinder your reach by 75% on average. So those posts, as soon as LinkedIn picks up, or they look promotional, your reach is down 75% straight off, so you may as well not put it out and it actually harms your future reach. So your next post will bomb as well, even if it's interesting, because you've set the precedent for putting out promotional or salesy content,  

31:40 
Host: 
You've shot yourself in the foot.  

31:40 
Luke: Yeah, and if you consistently do that, and sadly, most B2B brands that we work with do consistently put this stuff out until we dissuade them from doing that, it’s just a never ending cycle of yes we've put promotional content out or dull content, and our posts get ever less reach. So if you're in a marketing team in those companies, you're constantly under pressure to increase the reach and engagement level, but the systems are as such within it that you can't do that quite often. 

32:10 
Host: 
That's really fascinating insight. So to recap, when we're trying to take on LinkedIn as marketers, what are your three top tips? Presumably, the first one is obvious, avoid blandness. What are the rest?  

32:23 
Luke: 
So the first one, I would always start with your audience. So who you're writing for, pick a specific audience, and it can be broad. Let's say for a tech company these days, you could probably pick a phrase like digital transformation and say, right that's our core keyword phrase. Now, what are the different segments under that? How do we target those specific audiences with our content? So I think having that understanding of who you're talking to is number one thing. The second one is, yeah exactly, sharing genuine insights that are going to jar people a little bit and that they'll notice. So not promotional, not standard content marketing type stuff. And then the third one is to engage and drive engagement. So I have a mantra in the business that my team is probably sick of, which is, where's the conversation in that? If we're going to put it out, if there's a full stop at the end of it, then there's no incentive to engage. We shouldn't be doing it. It has to have some kind of next step, right? Tell us your thoughts. Is this a good idea? Give us your feedback.  Or you can actually put stuff in that incites people to engage. So hey, if you want the report, add your comment, and I'll get in touch and send you the full report, stuff like that. So you can do that because you want to drive the engagement, otherwise you're not going to get anywhere. 

33:49 
Host: 
That's fantastic insights. And that is a really useful podcast for people to take as they start devising their social media strategy, and actually, to have other people in the business listen to when they are trying to do stayed and dull and boring things and things that aren't diverse and aren't mixed and not have full stops at the end. That is what we want to avoid. Play it to your C suite. Play the podcast to your C suite. Don't just listen to it yourself. Play it to your C suite and say, look, this is what Luke Brinley Jones tells us, and he's right, because if we don't do this, we're going to get effectively blacklisted by LinkedIn, and we're going to go down and down and down. We have to be interesting. We have to drive engagement, and we have to keep the conversation going.  

34:31 
Luke: 
Absolutely.  

34:32 
Host: 
Luke Brinley Jones, thank you very much today for your time and insights and appearing on the CIM Marketing podcast.  

34:37 
Luke: 
Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here Ben. 

34:39 
Host: 
It was fantastic. Thank you very much, Luke. 

34:41 
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